I: It’s Valentine’s Day, February 14, 2008 and we’re here in the ILR Conference Center talking with Dave Dunlop. So let’s begin by talking a little bit about you know, your professional journey and where this all began. Well Deborah, you know that I was a Cornell graduate, class of 1959, about … oh what… I'm coming up on my 50th reunion. When I was about to depart Cornell, I had the good fortune to be invited to join the staff here and … but I had a six months tour of duty as a result of my being an ROTC here. You think ah… six months or two years… I was hoping for two years, but I had an engagement that broke up. I wanted to go in the foreign legion but I got six months and then I had this offer at Cornell. So I accepted the offer to work in Cornell’s development office. The reality is I was probably… if you gave me the accurate job title, assistant to the Vice President’s secretary. I think the title was assistant director of development but it was great moment of entry into a field that I thought well, this will fill in for a few months till I go in the army and then I’ll get a real job. In those six months, I found out that Cornell is a great place to work. Good people pursuing good objectives with a great deal of commitment whether they were volunteers or staff and I was so happy when they said, we’ll hold your place. So I happily returned to Cornell after my six months of active duty in the army and one of my first assignments here was to be the helper in organizing the 9th annual meeting of the Cornell University Council. For me, one of the neat things about that assignment was I got to meet people who were the people who founded that aspect of Cornell, people who were former trustees who later became presidential counselors and had other honors for their service to Cornell and to work with them, I also worked with the vice president’s secretary Vera Horton, J. L. Swingle was the Vice President in those days and J.L. went on to be the chief executive for the association of governing boards and became renowned for that work. Prior to coming to Cornell, he was the President of Park College. So I had a good mentor in front of me. I actually said mentors because Vera was a mentor and so was J.L. In those early days it was just meeting people at the airport, running errands, you know, buy this, find out that, reserve this room, but what a learning experience it was. First I learned about the university and how we do things, second, I learned about the people here and then I learned also about these wonderful people who care so much that they give up their time, talent and resources and I started to feel like by dumb luck I could work at a place that really I wanted to be at and date the co-eds and I had a chance to coach the freshman wrestling team for a year or two. I wasn’t a very good coach. I had been a wrestler and a football player but they were the frivolous reasons for staying here. DRD: The real reason was this was a place where first I was in love with it because of its mission, to help the people that go through here, live fuller, richer, better lives, more constructive lives. So it sounded pretty neat and now 40 … how many years later… coming up on almost 50 years later … what a lucky choice. I: I think that’s an interesting part of the story because so often you're in a job that you're doing relatively … let’s say utilitarian type of things and if you don’t look at the possibilities while you're doing that, it’s sort of the message of doing your best no matter what you're doing and I think a lot of … that’s a great message for students because often if they have internships or so, they say, well, they just had me you know, copying papers and making reservations and you still managed to really immerse yourself in that environment and learn from it. So that’s terrific. One of the wonderful pieces of gridlock was in the same month that I started on the staff at Cornell, Dick Ramin, Cornell Class of ’51, returned to Cornell to come to work and Dick went on to become first Director of Development and then Vice President and Dick was a magnificent person to work with or to work for. You know, I don’t think you know, I'm sure I made my fair share of mistakes and things. He had a wonderful way of never criticizing you but he would just look at you and you knew he was saying, Dave, you might have done that better. I mean there weren’t even any words and he was a wonderful mentor, a wonderful boss. His good friend, Rick Haley was another person that I worked with, also class of ’51. Also Haley and Ramond were two Cornell football players who had success after they graduated and both of them returned to the university. Rick went on to become Vice President for Alumni Affairs and Development at Johns Hopkins University. And of course Dick spent the rest of his life here at Cornell. I started out in development, a variety of assignments. I mentioned to you the errands that I ran. I was also assigned to do some work in the annual fund and they … I was also assigned very early in my career to be the person on the staff that would help the Cornell plantations. Now in those days, the plantations was not regarded as it is regarded now. You know, in fact, I realize now they were assigning me to the plantations to be their fundraisers because they didn’t want to waste somebody whose time was more valuable. Now the reason that this was such a wonderful break for me was that there was a dear alumnus in the class of 1913, George H. Rockwell. George Rockwell felt passionately about what our natural environment does for the enrichment of life of people in the cities, in the country and everywhere in between. So he was a committed person. George had been a Cornell trustee and was the founder of Cornell Plantations Sponsors Group and he and a fellow named Clement Bowers, I forget Clement’s class. I think it was just somewhere in the 1920s but Clement Bowers wrote the bible on rhododendrons and azaleas, a very big tome of a book, and those two wanted to draw attention… they wanted to convince the university that this was an important dimension of Cornell. When I first became involved with it, except for some part time salaries or half-time salaries of a plantations magazine editor, the director was half time and there were two full time staff that took care of the plants and that was it. Except for those salaries, they had an operating budget of $8000 and that was it. Now I became the fundraiser for them. I can remember the day … when we raised a little bit of money, now I just knew a few thousands of dollars, I would get excited and be in the staff meetings and the more senior staff members would report in this sort of group session and keeping everybody up to date and I would say, we’ve doubled the $8000 and my boss Walt Bruska a wonderful boss, I love the man but he took me aside and he said, now Dunlop, you can spend time on the plantations when you get done cleaning the men’s room. Don’t you know, this is low priority. Years later when we had some … two million dollar gifts that helped us expand the arboretum and the … it really was a transformed… the idea wasn’t transformed. The idea was there all along. Liberty Hyde Bailey had it. A number of others carried the torch but we celebrated the acquisition of the pasture lands that the black angus used to be pastured out on as an addition to the arboretum an ideal addition because it was adjacent to other holdings. It was land that would never again have such proximity to the campus where the students could walk out from the campus, enter the plantations… perfect addition. We thought we would celebrate it and I was saying, maybe we’d have 45 people, something like that, a gathering out there and it grew. There were so many… we had over 300 people accepting the invitation to come and it came from long distances. I think they appreciated what Rockwell and Bailey and some of the others had as a vision. We had to pitch a circus tent up on the hill top out there in the plantations and … it was a moment that they realized how ideas grow from the … “dammit, Dunlop, spent time on the plantations” to having the presidents, the provost, the trustees and others extol its part in the university and this is just a few years apart you know, but the quiet workings of George Rockwell and Clement Bowers transformed a university’s attitude and now you know what the plantation is known worldwide. It’s one of the jewels of the university. And I was so lucky as a kid you know, fresh out to be assigned to be involved in a small way and to observe this growth and I think it was a learning experience that was unparalleled because universities and colleges are filled with things… there are good ideas and some of them are left to languish on the edges with no resources and I saw how something that could have languished was transformed into a jewel and it was something that you could foster without violating the priorities of the institution. DRD: You just share something good. People buy into it and then they become trustees and influential… you know, at Cornell, some of them are presidential counselors and almost like magic. It subtly influences the priority setting of a great institution. I: Was this the time when you brought in new approaches or do you think it was primarily having someone pay attention and be able to leverage this interest you had from the alums? DRD: It certainly influenced me and I hope perhaps I might have had an influence not necessarily borne of my own mind, maybe a little bit of it but in those early days when the plantation’s budget was $8000 you know, and half time salaries and not much to talk about, it had been more back … previously when the … they had the CCC during the depression. You know, they hired people to give them WPA and the CCC work and we had a crew that help build some infrastructure but with World War II that all collapsed and after the war it was very stagnant. No money, no people, not much going on, and I watched it, awakened from that and one of the things Rockwell said to me when … in fact… can I take an aside here. Rockwell tried to get me fired. He went in to Breska, the director of development and said, what are you doing, Breska. You give me a kid who doesn’t know anything. You know, this plantations is important and Walt says to Breska, George, I can't change it now. We’ve got the all staff assignments but a year from now I’ll get you somebody more mature and assigned to the plantations. Well Rockwell worked with me for a year. He had me come up to his home in New Hampshire and we talked about Clement Bowers, his partner in this miracle that took place for the plantations and he came over… I remember one time, I had some nose surgery that kept me home for a couple of weeks. Clement came over and was teaching me how important the environment is and how important Cornell is with this great college of agriculture and life sciences with all the other sections of Cornell that relate to how we treat our environment and the most appreciation and development of it and you know, he really spent hours with me, this kid who knew nothing and that was like the inoculation that made me a partisan. I couldn’t help but believe in it. DRD: George had given the Mary Rockwell Azalea Garden that’s out here on Tower Road, near the AD White House. He gave that as a minuscule model of an individual could do and what a pleasure it would be to do it and have an impact on what the plantations was trying to do and he also gave another… what was that a minuscule model… in the plantations, part of the land where during the 1950s when they building the engineering… the first buildings on the engineering quadrangle, they needed a place to dump their rubble and the trucks came in and dumped it out near the water filtration plant and then they covered it over with dirt and it was … George was a trustee at that time and he had an … gave a gift to develop Azalea Garden because Clement wrote the bible on azaleas. Now adjacent to that … just how some of these things evolved. Adjacent to that was another swampy, neglected area not developed and they had a dream and an idea, wouldn’t it be wonderful to have a wildflower garden and Floyd Mundy, class of 1928 and his wife Muriel were in a small group of friends that Clement and George had assembled. They called themselves the sponsors of the Cornell plantations. They had their first … I was going to say their first dinner … they met over at dinners for many years but the first dinner was just a little cocktail party in the old Statler before it was renovated many, many years ago. Well Floyd and Muriel were interesting because Muriel loved wild flowers. That was her passion and they wondered if they might not get more done on wildflowers and we … that’s how this neglected area adjacent to Clement’s azalea garden… you have to walk by the azaleas to get to it was developed as the Mundy Wildflower Garden, and I can remember, we had … Peggy and I, George Rockwell and Floyd and Muriel Mundy had dinner together at the Statler and when we proposed this idea, talked about the possibility of using this area until he died Floyd said, that was the most expensive dinner I ever went to. Floyd was an enthusiast about his fraternity. He was a big gun for his fraternity house but I … and I suspect he may have given more there but this was their place at Cornell that they cherished the most. I: At the end of the year then, I imagine that the desire to have somebody else changed … DRD: You mean somebody else… I: You said at the beginning, he went and asked for another person besides you and then after you worked with him for a year… DRD: Oh let me tell you the end of that story. I: Okay, so tell me the end of that story. The end of the story was a year later, Walt true to his word said, George, we’re about to install… I forgot who it was, somebody much my senior, you know, and experienced… and George was as upset, I’ve spent a whole year on this kid getting him ready, what are you trying to do. So that was the beginning of about 15 years that I spent as a part of my assignment, not the whole time but part of my assignment for the plantations and I cherished that because it showed me how you develop both interest in ideas and raise funds for those ideas. One of the great advancements for us was when that Black Angus pasture land became available and we had a dream that it might become a major part of the an ideal part of the because of its proximity and because of the tirade and we knew it was going to cost at least a couple of million dollars. Now a couple of million dollars in those days is probably like 5 million dollars today or more. You know… it might be even 6 or 7 million and we had someone … I won't identify him because he went on to do wonderful things for Cornell in other areas but we thought this is just what would be just right for him and there was lots of logic to it, and he encouraged our enthusiasm for … we showed him the land, we walked over it and we … I scraped together enough money to have a notable landscape architect do some beginning designs and went over … traveled to his home and office, he owned his own company and went in and laid out the designs and he turned us down flat and oh, it was like the bottom fell out. DRD: But the … it was too good a possibility and … I: So what was the take away, what was the learning from that … I mean… ‘cause that must happen a lot to people in fundraising where they feel like all the planets are aligned but the donors are just not… One of the big learning is you can't know what another person’s ultimate values and interests are. And you know what… and I guess to that magnitude, had to really … deeply to personal values and interests and it also needs to be founded in belief, in confidence in the idea and belief and confidence in the people pursuing that idea. I don’t think I can fathom where the deficiencies were that would have, I think after it was all done and it was in place, I suspect in his heart of hearts he felt like he missed an opportunity. He went to do some other … I can't tell you what they are without identifying who it is but other wonderful things and that did not… his turning down was not a turn down on Cornell, it was just turned down to a particular project. I: I wonder about … and I don’t have that much experience with donors but I wonder about the more entrepreneurial donors, wanting to also be the originator of the idea as opposed to having something brought to them, you know, we’ve had a little bit of this in the entrepreneurship program where people love to start new things and were you know, that’s great but on the other hand, you know, you're faced with sort of trying the operation. You know, it’s like there’s different kinds of love and sometimes you can't stand too much of. People are willing to start a lot of things that you're on the hook to sustain ever after in perpetuity and an astute benefactor understands that and thinks with you all the way through to the idea, even if they can't cover all of the costs which few … you know, most of our good ideas at Cornell, they're beyond a single individual, even a wealthy single individual. Cornell itself, when Ezra and Andrew were talking on that… was it Stage Street in Albany, they had an idea, a marvelous idea and Ezra poured his fortune into it and Andrew, his fortune and his life but it went … the cause went way beyond it. So you know, you're right, you need to draw in others. DRD: In respect to the plantations, one of the others was F.R. Newman. His full name is Floyd Roy Newman but he didn’t like to his name and he said to me, Dave, call me FR or Flood, his nickname and he’d been … for about a dozen years, it was Mr. Newman you know, but it’s a funny thing. Incidentally, for any fundraisers that might listen to this tape, there was a grand old man in the field of fundraising that wrote what many of us for years thought was the bible and he would come and advise Cornell and one of his pieces of advise was don’t presume familiarity beyond… your estimate of the degree of familiarity may be prejudiced by what you hoped it would be. So that if you greet someone, it doesn’t hurt to use Mr. or Mrs. or Ms. Until they invite you to be more personal. And with that is as a fundraiser you don’t pursue a familiarity to develop a friendship with you. It is … your focus is on the ideas and the institution and so sometimes we miss that because we think oh a great fundraiser, I know so and so and they're all first names. That isn't the real core of the business. The core of the business is to focus on the good that’s going to happen and then if while you … you shouldn’t pursue friendship first as a first objective in fundraising, personal friendship, I would amend what Seymour… the grand old man I'm referring to is Harold J. Seymour, Harvard Class of 1916 and he wrote the book Designs for Fundraising, and he went on to … after serving Harvard, after World War I went on to be one of the preeminent consultants and that’s how he came to advise Cornell. DRD: And he had great advice and I still like his advice. One of the pieces of advice was that what I mentioned a moment ago, don’t put yourself first, and I’ll come back to Seymour. I: Yeah, you were saying you were going to amend something that he had said. Don’t pursue friendship as a opening of the door but … that would be a mistake but I would amend it by saying, but if over time friendship evolves, then don’t put it off. These shared values and shared interests, even though capacities and circumstance might be entirely different, it would be a mistake to put it off when it evolves genuinely over time. I: Let’s go back to how you perceived the development world when you came into it ‘cause I think even early on, you saw some new possibilities and I think you mentioned Phone-a-Fund and some other innovative ideas that you … that started to emerge for you. DRD: When you spend a career at one institution in one field of that institution, you know, in development, it’s evolutionary, I mean little dribs and drabs come in. I don’t think I had that because I took this not with a career intention, just by accident. I don’t think I had beginning concepts. I did have the great benefit of sitting at the knee of this fellow Seymour that I was just describing to you and listening to him speak about what's important. One of the things that he used to counsel, it is largely ignored now in fundraising, development circles, but he used to say, really at an institution, the school of the ilk of Cornell and Harvard, the voice of asking for the institution within the institution should only be the president. The others should not be asking. The voice of asking should be someone who has given that has the credibility of having made the significant commitments for which they are asking consideration of another person, and I still believe that in the long haul that that counsel is correct. We now see vice presidents and directors of development and development staff people being quickly a voice of asking because it’s more efficient. They can get the job done. They know the information. They don’t have to teach or share with someone else all the plans, the dreams, the … but I think what is missing is that in asking someone else to consider a major philanthropic commitment, you are … when the volunteer does that, first … especially if they have to search themselves, what their part is, and if they haven’t done their part, they will think deeply about why is this so compelling that this person should give and in thinking of how they can encourage someone else to give, they start to encourage themselves to make the commitment. Now ideally, you should have a major donor ask other persons for a major gift but even when it doesn’t go in the proper sequence it is a dynamic, that is fundamental, and often that is lost sight of. When I see other institutions, some of which are committed to staff asking, I think they are throwing away a golden opportunity to engage leading individual benefactors to be the voice of asking of others to go and do likewise and to me that seems a very costly efficiency to make that mistake. I know there are many in our file that think I'm an equated maitre d’ on that regard but I've seen it too often, from the beginning moments. For example, on the corner of Tower Road and East Avenue right on the edge of Day Hall, there used to be a traffic light there. I don’t think… there’s no traffic light there now. It’s a stop sign. By the pillar that held up the traffic light, I stood at the elbow of George Rockwell and FR Newman. Now Newman had been a trustee as I mentioned and George is telling Mr. Newman about the plantations and I hear Mr. Newman saying, I'm interested in those kind of things. I have this plantations… he didn’t use the term plantation, type place out at my home and George is saying, there’s a group of us getting together over to Toboggan Lodge, won't you come along, George. Yes I will. So we walk over together on a spur of the moment, one volunteer talking to another friend, George, class of 1913, Floyd Newman, class of 1912 and Dave Dunlop, the youngster in the corner walking at their heels on over to Toboggan Lodge. And this is in the early days of that plantation center that was described to you a little earlier. There were reports about the plantations that the editor of the plantations magazine and the director of the plantations … Now these are two people that were spiritually committed, I say spiritually because there wasn’t a lot to show off. What they had was from the 1940s that had been unattended for so long but they had a vision and the vision was on fire in their minds and hearts and Audrey had even made a model of what an herb garden that would be one small part of this might be and anyway we go over there and Dick Lewis, Richard Lewis was the director of the plantations and I mentioned to you he’s … it’s a spiritual commitment for him and he has this vision and after the luncheon’s over, he invites any of you who would like to take the tour, I’ve arranged for a bus, all aboard for anyone … practically everybody went on but so did FR Newman. So he … Newman is in one of the seats of the bus as well as at the luncheon and Newman sees this fellow Lewis, Professor Lewis speak with such enthusiasm and with such a vision that they … that was the beginning of a great friendship and the rest is history. I: I can see where that fundamental belief and including the voice, the authentic voices of the volunteers and benefactors. One of the messages hidden in this is we don’t raise money. If we’re talking about money, we’re lost. We’re talking about doing good. Great ideas, living ideas and that we’re helping people, inviting people in to participate in some of the living ideas that make a great deal of difference. Now we have to know what the things cost, but so often fundraisers lead by talking about the money and I … no one should just talk about money, but for me the ideal solicitation is one where there isn't a moment of asking, at least on the part of the solicitor, the asking comes from the friend who says, what would it … what is it going to take for us to do this, and that’s the moment, that the timing is right but you can imagine, there’s a good deal of work that goes on to sharing with a friend to bring us to that moment. I: So is that where the building of these longer term relationships between the potential benefactor and the institution come in. Is that … There’s all kinds of fundraising that…there’s some of it is heavily oriented on asking. I cut my teeth in fundraising. In the early days of phonathons, in 1958, Howard Falberg at Columbia University who had just graduated from the Columbia Business School and went to work for Columbia was given the assignment for the business school to run its annual fund and he had no experience in fundraising but as a business school graduate, he thought, well, what are my alternatives. I have this objective, we have to ask all these people for support and he thought about letters and personally asking… oh you know, we could get some people together and he went down to the telephone company head offices on 33rd Street across from the … oh that big arena there… and they had row on row of desks with phones on them, and Howard asks them would they lend their facility here, and in fact I think the first phonathon, they even let the toll call charges… I mean they were welcoming them in because they saw… the phone company people saw a future in this. And in that large room with row on row … they held the first phonathon, at least the first that I know of and I think it really was the first … certainly the first collegiate phonathon. I was visiting with Howard and learned of this and I thought that’s a terrific idea. I think we were the second and we had people who were giving a $1000 a year and some of them, Floyd Mundy, one of them came in at another telephone company site and made phone calls for Cornell, calling friends and classmates and at first it was like slice bread because people hadn’t been getting phone calls at supper time interrupting their suppers and they were speaking to old friends and I carefully selected who would call whom, so there were logical connections, team mates, class mates, etc. And that took off like wildfire. Now they still do phonathons, but now they pay students to make the calls and … or other alternatives but at first it was dynamite because you had people getting together. They were … even before they came to the site, they were thinking, what are the good reasons for giving to Cornell that I can tell the other people and then they were convincing themselves and their giving went up significantly, the followers as well as getting others to think more thoughtfully about giving. I: It just goes to your idea of them interacting and doing the relationship building and the asking among them. If I could digress for a moment. I did for … a dozen years or more, was a staffer helping run phonathons and before we had regional offices, you know, Cornell now has regional offices and different sites around the nation, around the world, but I would be the fellow set out to the west coast and on Bush Street in San Francisco, we borrowed an office of what was then Brokerage house. Now a brokerage house is where … a wonderful site because it had rows and rows of desks, all looking forward to where the results … so it was just a perfect setup and we were in there running a phonathon and I can remember, Dorothy Daggenheart was one of the volunteers, Dorothy and Ira, two pediatricians from… their practice was in Ross and they lived in San Anselmo but here we are down south San Francisco, there are at the back of the room phoning and Dorothy is getting up … the calls are going on and she’s coming up upset about something and I'm looking at her come up holding something and I'm thinking to myself, she’s not really upset, she just wants attention. Well, I think that was a true assessment and in fact they became like family to Peggy and me. We truly love them but that was one of my lessons in fundraising. People don’t invest the energy of being upset about something. Dorothy’s was a momentary one but there are people who are angry and upset, maybe even at a place as good as Cornell and they are worthy of attention, our best attention because you don’t get upset unless you care. I: That’s very true. Let’s shift a little bit to the … in the next segment I want to kind of want to move to the whole idea of what you said earlier that the field of fundraising, people have a lot of misunderstanding about it and I … I want to create some content for people who are interested in perhaps going into development you know, and so if you could speak a little bit about what you think people misunderstand and some insights there, that will be great. That’s a good thing to do. I've already started to touch on something that is rather fundamental. When people think of fundraising, they think of the moment of asking and many people enter the field of fundraising thinking I'm going to be an asker. Earlier I mentioned really a person is not qualified to be the voice of asking unless they have actually done it themselves that a professional fundraiser should carry with him or herself, the point of view that their asking is an alternative of last resort that for some impediment there isn't someone better, not only for the sake of legitimacy, you know, that no one can doubt the person who is committed to be genuinely a believer rather than a hired hand that’s paid for asking. So not only for that, there are other aspects because you need to believe in volunteer leadership, real volunteer leadership. Yes, there are roles for staff to lead on the staff side but when they invade the areas there should be reserved for volunteers, they're throwing out the door the most important elements for … that are required for giving at the higher levels, that people … another Seymourism. I can remember Sey saying this to a whole bunch of us, young green alums --remember: a person likes to be a worthwhile member of a worthwhile group, that is such a core idea. DRD: Some groups are transitory, you know, it’s just a clutch of people. Clement and George Rockwell. Clement Bowers and George Rockwell and two or three others, conniving, could be a group or the Cornell University Council 400 strong is a group or the Arts College Advisory Council or … you know, you name it, there’s groups everywhere. Remembering a person must be a worthwhile member of a worthwhile group becomes a core idea as we dream and think about what we do. The second thing is we’re not just in the business of asking. The larger gifts, the significant gifts, this is significant to the individual giving, significant to the university or institution receiving, are based not just on a moment of asking. The annual funds are typically heavily asking oriented but the larger gifts, the transforming gifts, the gifts that can launch whole new aspects of the good that Cornell does, those come from a belief and confidence that I alluded to earlier, belief in an idea, confidence in the idea, belief in the people pursuing the idea and confidence in those people. Now as much… when it comes to serious fundraising, we need to address how we conduct our business to develop that belief and confidence in ideas and people, and that … and sometimes that goes on for years before we start to put the dollars and cents together. So it’s a different area of fundraising, not disconnected from the annual fund and because they are not disconnected, you know, the same person that may give annually or choose not to give annually may be a person that may give some of the larger gifts that can launch a whole new dimension or a whole new project. I: Talk to me a little bit about some of the … DRD: I’m believing that at some point I’d like to talk about the integration, coordination and making the different pieces of fundraising complementary. I: Let’s talk about it now. I think my experience in falling in to this field is probably not too different than a lot of the people that are in it. We don’t come prepared. We didn’t go to school to learn about fundraising. We may have taken sociology and psychology and a few other subjects that have nice bearing on it but we’re not trained. I just think how we need to evolve a picture of what we are about. We begin our careers because they farm you out to the annual fund, heavily asking. Many places… I think Cornell is better than this but many places they teach you how to run phonathons, how to write, direct mail appeals, how to organize committees for reunion solicitation and the focus is just on that. At Cornell, I think we do something beyond that and I'm proud of Cornell for its posture. All along the way the person … that staff person that runs the phonathon or holds the reunion campaign meetings that are organized, they are part of a dynamic that is building the belief and confidence of a lot of people among whom are some of those of the greatest capability that could really make a huge difference to the university. I think that even the beginners, you know, the fresh … like I was when I came into this, need to have that vision that they are part of a … of more than one process at the same time and then have the latitude to be responsive. I remember a moment, Mr. Rockwell invited me to come up to Wolfeboro, this was one of those sessions where he wanted to do indoctrinate me, so I would really understand better. Walt Breska was still my boss, and I mentioned I had this invitation but you know, I’ll be out of the office for three or four days and in those days our budgets were so slim, you know, even the travel to Wolfeboro, New Hampshire was something you had to figure out but Walt never thought twice. He said, yes, that’s the right thing to do. And it was the right thing to do. I mean a lot followed. How do you train a person to work in this field? When I started it was ad hoc. You know, there weren’t very many… there were a few conferences … the capital for advancement and support of education had not yet been created. It was a merger between the ACPRA, the public relations people national organization and the American Alumni Council, the AAC, but back in the AAC days, there were conferences but they really didn’t address the… I mean the people would get up and speak about what they were doing and some good ideas. Now they have some much better training. They have institutes that CASE puts on but their needs are … training of people in this field of development and advancement needs more attention. When you think of the training that bankers and lawyers and others have whose work is of great consequence and there are professional standards for the training, our field is just evolving standards and there’s a lot more than there used to be. I think there’s a lot more that needs to be done in order to help people enter in the field, have the backgrounds that they need. I: What do you think should be in the curriculum for that educational effort and I'm speaking curriculum broadly speaking, like what … if you wanted to put together something more purposeful in terms of education and training and preparing people to be in the field, what needs to be in there? Well before I respond, let me acknowledge that the Council for the Advancement and Support of Education (CASE), has been taking great strides. I mean from where we were to where they are now is light years that they’ve covered and I have a great deal of respect for what they have done. They’ve got some of the best people in the field and the best people in different aspects of the field, the people who run the best phonathons, who do the best plan giving, that do the best major gift fundraising, to be volunteer faculty for conferences and institutes and that’s good sharing. The University of Indiana has the Fundraising Institute and they also had people, they even have … started to have people who are academically addressing fundraising. We, rather than just practitioners and we desperately needed that. You need both. I: Yeah, you need both. But now I understand that Columbia has one or two courses on fundraising and there are probably a dozen other places that have one or two but there’s not what needs to evolve. When you think of how much philanthropy and individual giving as well as corporate and foundation giving but you know that the lion share of philanthropy is done by individuals and has been for many, many years and most of my comments are oriented toward the dynamics that relate to individual fundraising. We do need more academic attention to it as well as a continuation of the practitioners sharing the best procedures and concepts that underlie it. I: I think the ideal mix in … and it’s not unlike entrepreneurship education, you need the educators because they can bring a little structure and discipline and they understand learning and learning styles and things like that but you need the practitioners to … this is whole origin of eClips to sort of infuse those frameworks and concepts and structure with something you know, to really populate it with something real…. DRD: You know, people doing the same work can think about the work in different ways and over the years I've evolved a way of thinking about what it is that we do in fundraising and how we do it. Now I find more comfortable and more helpful to be personally and now I've been delighted that some others have asked me to share those ideas with them and I almost always begin by talking about the kinds of gifts that people give and the methods of fundraising that we use to pursue different kinds of gifts. I like to think of them as three different kinds of gifts. The first kind of gift is the gift that we make over and over again you know, it’s our annual gift, annual gift to the United Way, annual gift to the college… or the weekly gift at your place of worship. That’s one kind of gift and because it is done regularly, over and over again it’s going to be automatically at the lower end of the size of gifts that an individual makes. This same individual should make gifts regularly when the church or synagogue needs to put a roof on the place of worship or when the college needs to put a wing on the library. The people who give regularly to the institution or the church or synagogue particularly if they give to the library or what have you… you know, that’s related to a particularly area, they're the ones that will be willing to think about what will it take for us to do this next big step and give something that may be 10, 20, 30, 40 times larger than they give on a regular basis, knowing full well they can't do that very often in their life because of the magnitude of the gift, but they step up and make gifts that I call special gifts to distinguish from regular gifts. Regular gifts, because they vary in size, you can't put a dollar amount that describes what a regular gift is. So I just say 1X, whatever X, X may be 100 dollars or maybe a 1000 dollars, for a wealthy person it may be … some wealthy people give a million dollars away regularly. 1X for the regular gift, special gifts it maybe 10, 20X, many more. There’s another kind of gift that is in the third position and when I first started thinking about this third type of gift that I observe people making, I knew no name for it. The people had referred to it but they would call it by the method of giving rather than the type of gift. They call it a you know, oh this is a planned gift. This is a deferred gift and that we need to sharpen our thinking. So I started to call it an ultimate gift. The ultimate, not necessarily the last but the fullest expression of a person’s capacity to be philanthropic. So on the spectrum we have regular gifts, 1X, special gifts, 5, 10, 20X and an ultimate gift maybe 100 or 1000 times, you know, a 1000X. So much of the attention of institutions that are engaged in fundraising is on the 1X and the 10X and they have organizations and staffing structures built around regular and special giving. Only in relatively recent decades or recent years have many institutions started to have staffing and concepts organized around the ultimate gift. The 100 or 1000X and the thing that I've discovered is that the activities in the regular and special gift arenas are oriented towards… heavily oriented toward asking. In the regular gift, asking is mandatory. You're doing it wholesale, so that 90% of what you do is related directly to the processes of asking and only a little bit is toward preparing the individual to want to make the gift. In campaigns because the stakes are higher, we do a lot more to prepare a person but still asking is the dominant factor. However, when we come to the third sector, where a person is going to contemplate the largest charitable decision of a lifetime, asking is minuscule unless the time is right, unless they have digested all the things that they need to digest about making a decision, it’s disastrous to pursue asking you know, you’ve got to hurry up and give it. You know, you have a lot of fun giving it, this ultimate gift. That will be such a turnoff that the concentration in this area where the ultimate gift is, is first nurturing of a relationship, it’s customized attention, taking into account each individual that you're addressing and being responsive to the factors that are influencing their lives in their decision making. For a time I called this nurturing fundraising because it was nurturing of relationships … sometimes I would… that sounds like too soft a term, you know, this is Sunday school and nurturing, so I sometimes call it customized or person centered fundraising. So those are … I haven’t really come to a comfortable ease over what language befits it. We need to you know, decide on person… person centered or customized fundraising but that area is the area that is the … that makes the hugest difference. You know, this … there’s an old … I: Is that because it’s the transformational gifts or is it… Because the magnitude… the largest gift of a lifetime will be the largest financially that a person is capable of giving and will have the greatest impact and some of the impacts are indeed of a magnitude that can transform an idea or an institution or an organization. I: I always wonder about people who have the means for that kind of transformational gift. Do they feel like they have a target painted on their backs? Do they get approached all the time, you know, is that part of the … I would think that the special gift area would be more susceptible to the target painted on my back feeling because here you have objectives, build the building, endow the deanship or whatever it is and they're enlisting crew members to pay the bill. I don’t think that applies so much to the third area and the reason that it doesn’t is that the third area is for a gift that represents the largest gift of a lifetime and it is not approached like you approach in campaign type fundraising. It’s approached like a walk together, viewing what good could happen and what it’s going to take for that good to happen, and feeling he ins and outs and as I mentioned to you before, the idea would be the person will come to the point where they’ll say, what's it gonna take and what are you gonna need from me. Now that’s the fundraiser’s dream come true but so much of the work is done in building the belief and confidence in that idea and the belief and confidence in the individuals pursuing it and that is different than campaign where you're out soliciting and asking with a little bit get ready, get ready ask kind of sequence. I: I'm wondering about … you know what you said about the focus and attention on the first two types of giving. It maybe because the … the ultimate gift, it takes more time and it takes more of a longer term commitment. It does. There’s an interesting divider on how decisions are made about what to do, when to do it, how to do it, who should do it, where it should be done, how well it should be done, how much are we investing doing it in the fundraising that works in the speculative fundraising for regular gifts. The campaign or project type fundraising that’s characteristic of special gifts versus the decision making of what to do, how to do it, etc. that we make in respect to a person’s ultimate gift and on the first two categories, the speculate fundraising and the campaign or project fundraising, the decision making is transactional. It is the next transaction to be done, we need to decide, you know… on the other side, the person centered customized fundraising for the largest gifts of the lifetime, that is not timed to transactions, it’s timed to an individual, to the … it’s relational. It’s based on a relationship and that’s an important distinction. Now as fundraisers we need to be aware which arena the transactional side of decision making is right and the campaign and project type fundraising and in the annual fund, it isn't right when you're hoping to inspire a person’s largest charitable commitment. There it has to be relational, based on the relationship. I: Is it most common that… is it ever the case that a donor wanting to make an ultimate gift has come to that conclusion on his or her own and comes to the person they know are the best in development or is that relatively uncommon. I would say it’s probably the norm if we’re truly doing person centered relationship based because it’s like … I see you’ve drawn the line there, over on the side for speculative fundraising and campaign fundraising, it’s like the farmer that wants to harvest and granted they do plant some crops but the harvest comes in on schedule, ready or not, here we come with the harvesting. On the other side, for these larger gifts of a lifetime, it’s not harvesting, it’s growing the crop that is the center of attention and the crop is going to mature depending on what is planted. I: That’s a great analogy. I want to be respectful of your time and I think we have … it’s 11:20. We have like 5 minutes left. Maybe we can just make this our first chapter of your interviews but let’s … is there anything in our sort of final 5 minutes, is there anything we haven’t touched on, you want to make sure that we do? If not, I've got a question… I think some of the core lessons, I’d mentioned… there’s one that I have not mentioned, but one of the core ideas that we talked about is where asking is dominant versus where developing the relationship, the divider between the speculative fundraising associated with annual giving or regular giving and the campaign giving where you need to proceed on schedule. There’s all sorts of dynamics. That divider between having a dimension of fundraising that recognizes the only right kind of proceeding is when it’s right for the donor so that the timing is truly based on the relationship. I think that’s one core idea. Another core idea is especially when we move to the larger gifts is the one we mentioned earlier, a person likes to be a worthwhile member of a worthwhile group and some institutions have … at the lower levels, the regular and special gifts you have, giving clubs, I'm in the Cornell Tower Club, I'm in the Dean’s Circle, I'm … and they are worthwhile groups and they even get together and they enjoy shoulders with people who share their appreciation of Cornell and express it at different levels. On the other side, where people’s ultimate gifts are … that’s much more subtle. The same giving club activity can seem awfully crass when if we take that concept, that mindset to the higher level of giving the largest gift of the lifetime, then it transforms what is a person’s largest gifts into… you pay your money, you get your honor, that is not much honor. It really needs … on that higher side, needs to be focused on the good that can be done and the power of that good and not the club concept. We dealt with that when we wanted to express appreciation to people who over their lifetimes have given a cumulative total that was substantial. Some of them had some large gifts but some of them, it was just regularly very generous gifts and that was why we took that space by the foot of the Libe Tower and inscribed on the wall, the names of people who had been so very generous to Cornell and the inscription as you enter that space is … here are the names of the people who have helped to build and sustain Cornell, and inside the library is a display case that explains a little bit about that wall and the names that are there and it has in it a book called the Builders of Cornell and there are those biographies that I mentioned to you that were assembled on these people. I: Let me ask you one final question and that is if you reflect… you said you’ve been involved in this area 40 to 50 years, if you think back about all of it, what do you think has taken you most by surprise? I'm astounded at the wealth that’s being given philanthropically. Cornell’s launched this campaign, is halfway there toward 4 billion dollar campaign. I can remember the day when people would say that about some said … in fact they would have thought a billion dollars is out of sight. Are you crazy, you know… a 100 million, nobody will ever … and now as I … you look back and say, gee we were just at the beginning. Now I think then the neat thing is some of the underlying elements, in fact some of the things that we talked about today are as relevant to our 4 billion dollar goals as when Cornell was trying to raise its first 100 million dollar campaign. I: Yeah. I think they really are the underlying fundamentals. I am so proud of Cornell’s activity in this area. You know, in 1949 or ’51 when Francis Sheets and John Coyer and that crowd who had led the greater Cornell campaign of 1949-50, they raised I think 12 million dollars. Now that was the first campaign after World War II and the depression preceded World War II. So there had … there had only been one campaign before that in Cornell’s history. I think it was back in 1914 or something like that… I may have my dates wrong but that 12 million dollars probably seemed to John Coyer and Francis Sheets and those trustees and others that were involved as large as our 4 billion dollar campaign and then when Stanford raised the first 100 million dollar campaign, then we thought oh my gosh, and then we did and surpassed it and the estimation of what people will do philanthropically, of course the dollars have changed but … The scale has changed faster.