David has articles that have appeared in numerous publications. He received a Bachelor of Commerce degree from McGill University in Montreal and a Masters of Arts from New York University. In addition to the writing he claims to have some expertise In computer programing and systems analyst which must be the direct path to social entrepreneurship I think. Lives in New York, and with this wife and son. I’ll get out of the way now. Please help me welcome David to the podium. Thanks very much. Thank you very much. It’s really a pleasure to be here. Normally when I talk with audiences, I’m sort of the expert on social entrepreneurship. So I don’t have to preface my comments in anyway because I assume that I know more than everybody else but in this room, there are so many people here who teach social entrepreneurship, who have studied it, who are really deeply engaged in the field and I’m very much humbled by knowing that. So really I’d like to just open the floor up as I'm speaking if there are people who have comments they want to make, if you want to raise your hand and say, I object to the wedding or whatever, really I’d love that to happen because there’s a lot of knowledge in this room and it’s … I really recognize that. The way I got into social entrepreneurship was really through being very unhappy as a computer programmer, not that there’s anything wrong with computer programing. It’s just … I was working at a computer company in Montreal. I had studied MIS at McGill University, Management Information Systems. My goal was to become rich specifically to have you know, a Jaguar and a country house in the Laurentians and I was very focused on that. I really hadn’t thought much about other things and a couple of things happened in my life when I was working at this computer job that just made me feel that, really I wasn’t … I guess I was living my life through my father’s eyes or through someone else’s eyes and the expectations for myself were really somebody else’s expectations and sort of just hit home to me, I had a girlfriend who was an actress and she used to ask good questions and so I decided ultimately to quit computer programing. I traveled around the world, I backpacked for 12 months which I highly recommend if any student ever asks, it’s a great experience. Came back and decided that I wanted to become a journalist because I had had an article published in Australia. So I thought I could do it and went to journalism school at NYU and spent … right after the first semester got an internship for New York Newsday which was one of the largest newspapers in the city at the time and really just started covering you know, Manhattan and Brooklyn and Queens and after a while just became very … kind of brought down by the process of seeing what was … what constituted news and what the editors always wanted me to cover. I would sometimes come in with community articles or stories about this group or that group and they always would sort of say, well you know, why don’t you know, the mayor bought an $11,000 headboard. Why don’t we write an article about you know, the waste of public funds or something like that. So I remember covering murders and stuff like that and I really thought that I would probably quit journalism and go back to computer programing which seemed better than that. When I heard about the Grameen Bank through a friend of a friend, and I was given this article and this book called Jorimon Faces of Poverty about how this horribly written collection of case studies about women in Bangladesh who had taken loans from the Grameen Bank… is there anybody here who doesn’t know what the Grameen Bank is by the way? Okay. So the Grameen Bank is a bank in Bangladesh that provides small loans for self employment to women villagers. He won the Nobel Peace Prize this past November. So it has … it started very, very small 30 years ago as just a college experiment by a professor who wanted to help villagers in Bangladesh move out of poverty and after trying many different experiments, most of which didn’t work that well or half worked but were sort of semi failures. He eventually discovered that by offering loans to women in the village who were already sort of self employed, they could significantly increase their economic returns on almost anything that they were doing because most of them were getting credit at very, very high rates from local money lenders. So that … the genesis of the Grameen Bank project was a college experiment with a bunch of graduate students in 1976 and so that was 1976. So today it lends money to 7 million women across Bangladesh. It’s in almost every village of the country and it really has sort of launched what people call the microfinance revolution. This massive spread globally of these institutions that specifically make loans to very poor people through delivery systems and collection systems that are appropriate to people who live in villages or slums. There’s about 100 million families around the world that get microcredit and if we think about how much credit has affected all of our lives, how many of us couldn’t have bought a home or a car or gone to college without a loan. You can imagine how important that is to these half a billion people who now have access to institutional, in most cases, not always reasonably priced credit in a sustainable system. So I had this book that I got in the early 90s basically chronicled a few stories of some women who had started you know, selling things, selling sweet potatoes. I remember there was one story called Sakeena’s New Identity about a women who was a beggar who then developed a small job in the village selling sweet potatoes because she had gotten her loan and it chronicled you know, how much she ate and how much her children ate and whether they had a thatch roof or a tin roof and a pit latrine and I mean it was very, very methodical in its analysis. And I just remember thinking this is something worth writing about and I had never heard about it. So I quit my job at the newspaper and I went to Bangladesh. I actually went back to my computer job to raise … to save $6000 quickly and live with my parents and I went to Bangladesh and really I spent … over two years I spent a year in Bangladesh, most of that time in villages, cross legged on cane mat floors, interviewing women and with a translator and really trying to figure out how this … why this organization is working. I mean I came in knowing really very little about the Grameen Bank or about international development or women’s empowerment issues or any of the things I probably should have known about … before I went to Bangladesh, but I just went in with a very … really an open heart and open mind to listening to people’s stories and what I saw was that this organization for one thing, it really was actually helping people move out of poverty. People clearly said the same thing over and over again. There were problems and some people you know, took two steps forward and there would be one step backwards, the cow would die or something would happen, somebody would get ill or there would be a flood or something, but the general trend line was up and positive for almost everybody I interviewed in terms of you know, quality of living, the things that they had in their house, whether they owned crockery, whether they could… whether they had a vegetable garden, whether they were able to weather out times when the… these very difficult seasons which are between harvest time in Bangladesh that are very hard for rural families, and I thought, yes, okay, it’s working. It’s very clear that in this rural economy it’s working and then I looked at the institution and I saw that this institution which employs today 20,000 people, you know, they work in 70,000 villages had a culture that was really kind of like, it was sort of like the IBM man of the 50s if you think about it, the sort of puffed chest, blue suited pride … of course they’re not in blue suits, they’re in saris, but there was a real culture of excellence that ran through the Grameen Bank that was completely different from what I had seen when I went into the … many other organizations in Bangladesh and also into the multilateral organizations like the United Nations and the World Bank where the culture there was more of cynicism actually to tell you the truth than of true belief in efficacy and really just the agency that you have in your country. And then finally, the last sort of realization to me was that you know, after seeing that it really is possible to alleviate poverty but there is a system that created this human sort of articulated network that had very high touch. The last thing was that this thing had been built in a very different way from the way I had imagined. I really thought that it had started as perhaps a government initiative or perhaps a top down multilateral initiative. I thought the UN or the World Bank must have been the primary first movers with the Grameen Bank, but I saw it was very, very different. It really started… Mohammad Yunus, the co-recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, really just started it because he met a woman in a village and then he met a whole bunch of others and he had his students do interviews and he saw that they clearly expressed the need for loans. So he set up this project with 42 villagers and then it moved to 300 and scaled up and through this process he built an organization and if … you know, it’s the classic entrepreneurial process of looking over the horizon, seeing an opportunity that other people don’t yet recognize, mobilizing a team, mobilizing resources, executing and immediately failing and having problems as soon as the ink is dry, you realize all your assumptions were flawed in some way and creating a listening culture so that you can constantly respond to your failures as you go, so you… so to speak, fail forward and as you go you're building the capacity to constantly do a bit more. So you’ve solved the problems at the level of 300 villagers, so that when you're at 1000, you’ve got those problems solved and then when you're at 1000, you solve the problems necessary to get to 2000 or 5000. This is completely the opposite of the way the World Bank, when they drop 30000 deep tube wells in Bangladesh, of which 95 of them you know, fell into disuse, it’s completely the opposite thing. They had a theory. They had an idea that seemed logical, that made sense in Geneva, in an office in Geneva and then they applied it at a massive scale and discovered the problems after 30,000 of them failed at a cost of like a quarter of a billion dollars to the people of Bangladesh. And this is … that’s the standard process by which I would say most development work has happened, not the only way but I would say probably 80% of it for making a thumbnail back of the envelope and probably a lot of government programs too You know, just generally speaking, have that kind of mark and then you have this sort of entrepreneurial process of sort of iterative learning, learning action research, learning by doing, so that by the time you’ve actually built something, you’ve solved 80% of your problems, and the entrepreneur being not the triumphant individual but sort of a mass recruiter of other people is the… seems to be the kind of the main role that they play. They’re constantly pulling in lots of people with lots of talent, getting them excited to do things to coordinate their efforts and to some degree having the belief that something will work before you really have any empirical proof that it will work. So having that belief, being the thing that keeps the ship afloat before you’ve actually filled the hole so to speak. And so after having seen that and written a book about it, I came back home and I realized that one conclusion of my first book, ‘The Price of a Dream’ was microcredit is a powerful idea and it certainly will play a role in the world economy moving forward but an even deeper thing was recognizing the role of the entrepreneur in building an organization that’s not necessarily about profit maximization, but is about other kinds of impact in the world and at that time I didn’t really even know that there were other people in the world doing this. When I graduated from McGill University, I mean I had four jobs that I thought I could do. One was to be a constitutional lawyer, a doctor, a computer programer or just to start my own business which was probably a computer business and I never had even thought of … the stuff that occupies my mind 99% of the time today wasn’t even on my radar screen up until you know, 19… really 1996 I guess. So I … after thinking that this character, this social entrepreneur was perhaps an interesting and important actor on the world stage, I then heard about the organization Ashoka that supports social entrepreneurs around the world. How many people here have heard of Ashoka? Oh great! That’s good. So … go to audiences and it’s usually about 10% of the hands go up. So… Ashoka is not a great marketing organization. They need to get their word out. So I met Bill Drayton, I had … really knew nothing about the organization, again I go into these things very green and I just … you know, ask them if I could do an article about him and the work and I traveled to Brazil and met some social entrepreneurs there and then through this five year process, supporting myself as a computer programer half time and then traveling the other half of the time, I wrote this book about … you know, interviewed a 100 social entrepreneurs around the world and wrote this book, ‘How to Change The World.’ And so what I saw interviewing all these people around the world was first of all, just the realization that there’s a lot of people globally doing this stuff. There really seems to be, for probably a number of historical forces which will be a great research project by the way to really try to understand why at this point in history, you really do have sort of the receding wave of authoritarianism that’s been filled up by a bunch of things, some of them good and bad and the good things have been this kind of open source social change mechanism where you have decentralized problem solvers, really effectively taking up problems that they see are not being well solved and because of … because many people around the world have access to higher education because many more people are middle class, because many more people have more confidence whether they come from … especially if they were untouchables or Afro-Brazilians for example or people from historically marginalized communities or if there are women going back to the past generation, they give themselves the permission to take action in a way that they might not have in the 70s or the 60s. At the same time the government is not putting them in jail. At the same time there are powerful communication tools and financial tools that cross boundaries. All of this stuff has sort of coalesced to create an enormous amount of supply for social entrepreneurship if you think about it that way and on the demand side, well we know the demand side is also high for solutions because the pace of change is so great and so these two things have kind of come together and you have these sort of self appointed problem solvers around the world. Incidentally, the dark side of this is Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda is another extremely powerful self organized organization that has huge impact on world history but they’re the dark side of the power of individuals to affect change. So the power of the individual is on the rise and the power of small groups is on the rise and it will take many different forms. Social entrepreneurship being the antibody form and Al-Qaeda being the cancer form I guess if you look at it that way. And they both will continue to rise. I would say that all of you, because you're studying social entrepreneurship and we’re really encouraging it are in the immune system building business, if you think about it that way. That analogy by the way is, I’m stealing from both Bill Drayton and Paul Hawken at the same time. So the immune system, Paul Hawken, his book ‘Blessed Unrest’ talks about it very beautifully. So after finishing the book, ‘How to change the world,’ you know, what I saw was that there really is a kind of professionalism or capacity to professionalize social entrepreneurship in the way that entrepreneurship in business has been professionalized where you have these sort of standard understandings, of course you can't just turn somebody into an entrepreneur but you know, like Peter Drucker has said, there are well known and well … easily verified understandings about how to go about doing certain things, so that we really don’t have to figure out you know, how to start a business from scratch. We really don’t have to figure out how to start a social change mechanism from scratch. There’s lots and lots of examples around the world of these things that are really working and we’re still by and large still reinventing the wheel by the way because the … this is I think the biggest challenge that we all face now is really systematizing the knowledge that has emerged particularly in the last 10 or 15 years, the problem solving knowledge around the world, meaning we really understand how to solve problems and why the problems in the past haven’t been solved in a way that we didn’t … when the United States was going through the great society for example. We had great intentions then but we didn’t have the problem solving knowledge. Now there’s enough practical evidence on the ground that’s ten or fifteen years old that really I think is the key thing to research. So if you look at … I’ve been doing a lot of research on the field of health in the United States and health and education in particular and there’s … it’s really, really clear that the major diseases that are occurring in the United States today, if you look for example, at diabetes which is… they estimate now that one in three children born today will get diabetes unless things change and one in two Latino children. One in two, that’s the current estimate. Diabetes is a very, very interesting kind of disease because it’s really controllable in … lot of the time through behavior change and so if you go around the country looking at the people who are working on this health issue, there’s a subset who are working on trying to find a cure for diabetes, but there’s much, much larger group of people who are actually trying to figure out how do you change people’s behavior ‘cause that’s ultimately you know, how do you get people to change their diet, to exercise, to test themselves, to take their medication properly and it’s all about behavior change.
DB: If you look at the field of asthma, it’s the same thing. Asthma is an epidemic in the cities in the United States, it’s a behavior change problem. 90% of asthma cases never have to make it to the hospital if people do a couple of things, usually it’s changing the home environment in some way and management of medication as a preventive way. So as I’ve been looking at social entrepreneurs around the United States for my new book, I see that a huge number of them are actually trying to figure out how do we affect behavior change. What are the things that you actually have to do if you want somebody to change their health behavior and this is really interesting if you think about it from the point of view of global challenge because diabetes is now spreading in India as the affluent lifestyle spreads around the world, India now has a quarter of a billion people who are considered middle class. The same things that we are going through here will be you know, they’ll be 20 years behind us, if that much. So if you think about it, really the key challenge, behavior change is very, very essential and it’s also very, very important in the field of AIDS of course, because that’s really the challenge, is how do you change people’s preventive behavior when it comes to that and what's interesting is that now there’s enough examples on the ground, you know, and speaking from the point of view of research because I know a lot of you are really in the field of researching entrepreneurship and specifically the kinds of things that are really sort of ripe areas to look into. So I made a list of some things that I think are particularly important in the field of social entrepreneurship. You know, once we see that there are these entrepreneurial mechanisms, these organizations that are being produced by individuals around the country and around the world, and in some ways they have competitive advantages over the top down systems like … that generally public systems, you know, generally the approach that is taken through public systems. If you look at the competitive advantages there which generally are the motivation of the entrepreneur, the fact that they can do very robust experimentation with the long term framework, they don’t have to show results in this two year congressional cycle or in this four year cycle for the mayor. They really are connected to the substance of the change and not the appearance of the change, so that … you know, whereas a lot of political people, they really have to have the appearance of change more than they need the substance of change. So there’s a different market signal that they’re looking for there if you think about it. So because of these factors and really the self selective motivation of the entrepreneur, they tend to be much better problem solvers than almost any other actor in society. But now that we have them in so many different areas, we can look together at what they’re doing. So I think … you know, some of the things that I’ve seen that are very, very interesting in the places where social entrepreneurs are particularly looking at now… are particularly looking now is, how do you actually as a social entrepreneur working say, in the field of education, in the field of healthcare, for example. How do you actually get inside the DNA of the public system and really change the public system? A lot of people now … in my book, ’How to Change The World’ I wrote about an organization called College Summit, that initially started … how many people have read about College Summit or know that story from my book? Okay. So College Summit started as just an experiment by a guy who was basically a tutor for low income teens in the after school center in a housing project in Washington and he saw that there were a lot of these kids who really had a lot of talent, who weren’t going to go onto college and he himself had gone to a school where a bunch of his friends who didn’t grow up in college going culture so to speak, didn’t go to college, very talented kids, his age. He went to Yale, his best buddy didn’t even go to the community college because he thought his … he should just go to work. So nationally only 46% of low income high school graduates go to college in the United States and College Summit gets which is now worked with 6000 kids, they get 80% admission into college and 80% retention. So J. B. Schramm started this organization, initially he looked at a bunch of things that the kids needed to do. One of them was they needed to be really well matched to a college where they could succeed. They needed to write a great essay because sometimes their marks weren’t so great but they might be cooking the meal for three younger siblings or they might be holding over a 40-hour a week job and maintaining a B-minus average or there might be all sorts of other mitigating circumstances in the family that really put tremendous emotional stress on this person and to maintain a B-minus average is extraordinary or as in the case, one young man that J. B. told me about, there was a shooting in a Washington DC neighborhood. This young man … there was tremendous tensions between the families, the parents and the teens and the police and he actually went around and organized a meeting between the police and the parents in the community. He took… he was a 17-year-old kid, he took it on himself to do this and it dramatically reduced the tensions and it created all these relationships that really made it a much safer community. So J. B. was saying to me, this kid should be in college. He should be in a leadership position in society. He’s got what it takes. You know, the academic thing, if it’s weak, we have to figure out a way to deal with that sort of thing but it was through the essay, through telling a powerful story that you could really make these kids stand out because they had other so to speak, academic risk factors and then the last thing that J. B. used to want to … his first career was to be a Baptist minister. So he has a strong understanding of the faith dimension in life and as part of these College Summit workshops, they would bring in what they call a rap director. This is part of the creativity of the entrepreneur to bring in these elements that are just really very intuitive, you know, the rap director was this person who was supposed to charge up the students and get them to acknowledge their won fears, the kinds of things that caused kids to shoot themselves in the foot a week before graduating constantly and the deep fear is always I’m not college material. I won't make it. I can't live away from home. My parents have always told me I’m not college material, whatever it is. They acknowledge that in a very open… kind of a therapeutic setting, they call it a rap session. It’s all the kids together with these fantastic youth facilitators and so putting together these elements, they had this tremendous success, this 80% success rate against the 46% average but as J. B. started growing this organization from you know, few 1000 kids to 5 and 6000, he realized that in fact the only way to really make big impact in the United States is to change schools at the district level, not only working at the school level but you’ve got to change the whole district. You’ve got to get the school superintendent and the district superintendent to make sure that schools really care, that their kids are going into college and to actually measure their schools based on that metric. Then you’ll get the principles to really care about it, then you’ll get the teachers to care about it and then College Summit can work with the whole school at a very college friendly environment and so they’ve started doing this now and they have now worked with the majority of high school seniors in five US cities. So this is quite a significant level of scale now and what I’ve learned from watching college summit grow is … ‘cause I stopped writing about them before they got to this phase of their development and what I’ve seen in the last four years is that in fact their new technology is engaging with the public system. That’s the thing that’s their competitive advantage or the thing that really is the most interesting and creative thing that they did and this is just one example of a fantastic area of social entrepreneurship that’s right for tons for research ‘cause there’s lots of examples of organizations that have started making that synapse happen, that connection, to getting inside the public systems and really getting those systems to change from within, changing the motivation of people within schools, within the administration and I just think that this is probably the most important area for social entrepreneurship over the next 20 years. It’s what the Gates Foundation has … they asked me to work on a report and they specifically said, how can we use social entrepreneurs to leverage change in public systems and how can we get social entrepreneurs to leverage change in the private sector. So you get these independent actors who go into the established boards of power in society and tinker with the DNA from inside and tinker with the motivations and this is just really, really ripe area for research. Another area that I think is very important is … and I know some of you are doing research in this area is really looking at the financial mechanisms that would really enable organizations, good social entrepreneurial organizations to really go to scale in the same way that businesses move from startup funding to growth funding to mezzanine funding to ultimately the big ones going public, IPO funding, and that’s… you know, if you look at the DOW … the DOW composite, half of the companies on the DOW were added after 1990, you know, so … I think it’s … I think it’s 1990, it might be 1980 but it’s very… it’s recent historically speaking. If you look at the top 20 nonprofits in the United States, 60% were founded before 1920, okay. So you have … in the business sector, you have this ability to take an idea, grow it very dramatically in a relatively short period of time and really sort of change in industry. So you can have change happening much more quickly and that’s really a function of the talent pool and the financial structures that make it possible for businesses to do that. So just going back to the College Summit example, ‘cause I already mentioned it, College Summit got to the point where they realized that they… J. B., the founder was spending 80% of his time fund raising, which is the classic bind of the social entrepreneur. They’re on the treadmill all the time that they can actually think about how to improve their organization, how to run their business is not what they're doing. They're actually just keeping the door open of the business, is what they spend 80% of their time on. No business CEO spends 80% of their time raising capital. They go … they have periods of time that are very intensive in terms of fund raising where they might spend three months or something but in general it’s probably flipped, it’s probably more like 20% of their time is raising capital and 80% of their time is running the business. So J. B. happened to meet a guy named Chuck Harris who was a Goldman Sachs banker who had just recently retired and they had a coffee together and he came in, he was just … providing advise to College Summit and he said to J. B., he said, you know, I’ve been watching you for the last six months and we would never grow a business this way. We would never finance growth this way. We didn’t do deals this way when I was in banking. And J. B. said, well how would we grow, if we wanted to be … we’re here now and in four years we’d like to be here. What would we do? He’d say, well you would do a private placement of capital. You would actually say this is where you are, this is where you need to be, these are all the people you need to hire, these are the things you have to execute. You add it all up, 15 million dollars which is the actual figure, 14.7 million dollars and before you even commit to that growth plan, you get the money in the bank. You go to a bunch of investors and you get them to fund this. This is called the private placement. You have a term sheet, it’s very standard. Anybody in business banking has done this a million times. There’s nothing creative about it. It’s just done but nobody does it in the nonprofit sector because it’s not done … not yet. So College Summit said, well let’s try that. Let’s do a proof fund. We want to show that we can prove that we can reach in four years this level of impact in all of these cities and we’ll go to a bunch of investors and we’ll try to raise money this way, speaking in terms that they understand and they gave themselves nine months to raise 15 million dollars. They raised it in seven months you know, and the thing was … you know, they actually turned down people who had very, very large contributions because they also had rules that no one investor can own more than a certain percentage of the proof fund. So they didn’t want to have one big… you know, one big voice on that fund. They wanted to make sure that these investors all saw themselves as peers. Now this is very, very creative and something that I’ve been researching for my new book. It’s just one example of a completely different way of financing social change that probably really needs to happen 100 or 1000 times over and I think it’s a … it’s another area where … that’s very, very ripe for research to really look at the comparative analysis of how growth gets funded in the private sector to how growth gets funded for social entrepreneurs. You know, you could … really, really useful studies. This could then be used as a leverage to change the behavior of foundations, which is one of the most important… one of the strongest bottlenecks to social change right now, is the capricious nature of social funding. So to have good research that’s … ‘cause people in foundations really care about research. They pay a lot of attention to that. That shows what's really possible, the kinds of financing structures. Incidentally Teach For America used the same approach that College Summit used, they were able to raise 20 million dollars and now they’re going on to ramp that up to 60 million dollars and they're finding that they're not really… there’s not a lack of investors for this kind of funding. They actually find that there’s a lot of people who want to actually put money into organizations this way. It’s really the intermediaries that’s the short … that’s in short supply. The people who can connect and can make that translation conversation between the people who want to make these investments and the organization that’s working in healthcare or disability or environment or something like that. So that’s another area where it’s important to look into. One huge other area that is just growing at a rapid clip now is this kind of hybrid social business venture that has … that looks like a business, it has revenues, it behaves like a business but it actually has a mission focus and so there’s … you know, there’s… you clearly are seeing this in the environmental field. I mean there’s enormous numbers of examples of organizations that want to you know, prevent, reduce emissions, reduce energy consumption, something like that and they’re structuring themselves as a business because it’s really delivering something as a product. But the goal is social change. And the question is what is the … what legal structure should this have? You know, in England they have something that they’ve now created called the social… I think it’s called the Social Benefit Enterprise. The term might be slightly off but it’s a business that has the social benefit, it has a different tax status. It’s not treated as a 501(c)(3), it’s not treated as a for-profit. It’s in this grey area. And I suspect probably as this field emerges, and as you see out of the business schools, so many young graduates, young MBAs want to start social purpose businesses. It’s a very, very hot topic but the legal structures that really make it possible and easy for people to invest in these things, that create risk profiles for investors that makes sense to them and would really sort of loosen the flow of capital would be a huge value added … and this is another area looking into what those legal structures are, what's on the table now, and really helping people to understand and predict the kinds of things that would really help this field to grow in the future. And finally I think probably the most important thing and then I’m going to just open it up for questions. We only have a few minutes, is, From the point of view of my experience of understanding social entrepreneurship has been really this kind of wonderful experience of having exposures to lots of people who are solving problems, and what I’ve discovered over time is unlike my… I have a 4-year-old son and I remember when he was like 2, at a certain point, I could draw a horse, a really badly drawn horse and he would know it was a horse. It just had to have something that kind of suggested a head, a longish head and a tail and four legs and he got that it was a horse. So at a certain point, he got enough… he had seen enough examples of horses that he just kind of got the pattern, you know. I have now seen enough examples of social entrepreneurs that I’ve got the pattern. I’ve … sometimes people describe what they’re doing and in a second I'm like, oh this is … that’s… you're doing that creative resource thing that I’ve seen happen before. You're taking the client and you're turning the client into the worker. You're turning the beneficiary into the resource that’s actually going to solve your problem. That’s very creative, you know, ChildLine did that in India, blah… blah… blah… and I see the pattern and I think what I realize is that it’s so valuable to give to people is the kinds of exposures to pattern, to problem solvers and a multiple kind of range of exposures so that they develop pattern recognition capabilities, which is really I think the highest thing … the highest level of … it’s really what the brain does better than anything else, is the pattern recognition, why we can … why a 5-year-old child can recognize language much better than the best computer in the world. It’s that ability to really understand and recognize patterns. And so by providing students with lots of exposures to problem solvers as part of their studies by getting them to go out and interview people, by having them really have to focus on a range of problem solvers and different kinds of problems solvers as part of their apprenticeship … it’s… be giving them a wonderful gift in terms of helping them to become the kind of … to really understand how to solve problems at a very intuitive level, you know, well beyond the acquisition of skills and so forth. And I’d just like to end with just this one idea. You know, I really did not think that the world looked the way it does to me you know, 15 years ago, I mean I really was … I was quite depressed when I was writing for newspapers. I really thought that the world was not getting better. It was dramatically getting worse and you know, despite you know, a lot of problems that we face today, despite you know, and I’m certain… I don’t know if the world is getting better or getting worse but there is this emerging landscape of problem solvers out there that is incredibly powerful and these stories really have to get out and get into people’s minds so that it’s on their menu of options of things to do in life. People who are watching the news everyday and reading the newspapers, it’s no surprise that people don’t show up to vote. It’s no surprise that a lot of people are circling their wagons and really focusing on making sure that their families are well taken care of but disengaging you know… it’s very difficult when you don’t have things that really build courage. These stories, the stories of social entrepreneurship, the deep understandings that we can get through this are I think the most powerful… most powerful tool we have to build courage in lots of people so that they themselves can give themselves the permission to try things that really will take them on whole new paths in life. And I hope that you’ve found some of these stories inspiring to you and thank you very much for inviting me. We have time for one or two questions that I could easily spend the rest of the day listening to you Dave, so thank you very much. But we have just a couple of questions. It’s a good question. I think that there are probably certain areas where it really makes sense to look at the economic pay back because especially in areas, any organization that dramatically reduces, say for example, future expenditures in the criminal justice system, which are massive, should make a very strong argument about the savings because ultimately you know, it’s incredibly powerful, you know, one … you know, $2000 for childhood enrichment for five years for when the kid is 8 to 13 will save you a gazillion dollars if that kid you know, takes a wrong turn later on. So there’s very, very powerful areas where social return on investment I think can be made. I don’t think it will ever be across the board. There’s areas that just don’t fit. It just doesn’t make sense and it actually distorts the thinking in a negative way I think for certain kinds of changes. I think the criminal justice system, the way that juries make decisions where they have decision rules, they have rules of evidence, they’re taught to use judgment and to apply their judgment bravely. I think that really ultimately … those kinds of decision making processes are very important and that’s kind of I think for the kinds of social good that don’t really fall very well on a spreadsheet or can really even be compared, I mean what's the value of an organization that’s giving disabled people a more decent life. You know, how do you measure that in terms of dollars as you can. You can put a value on that. So there are certain goods that I think … but once again people are very, very good at this. People can actually come to surprisingly good decisions, consensus decisions about ranking or ordering the value of things that are not put on a spreadsheet at all. The people who invest in College Summit, they call it at investment. It’s all about use of language. They’re not thinking about it as an investment. They think about it as a grant. They gave the money away. Only … it’s only for the sort of the … the sake of really simplifying the conversation that they call it an investment. But they give this money away with the same impulse that people do all sorts of things that aren't about maximizing their wealth in life. You know, they do it very willingly and joyfully too. Economic madness has never really passed muster as a concept. Okay thanks very much.